Curse

Allanon Dark · Apr 06, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

While I have been playing this game for a while now I have learned much and become a better player. While playing this game I noticed the stereotypes that all PvE players pretty much have to conform to. A warrior must be a meat shield, Ele must nuke, etc, etc. While looking at this I began to think that we could use some more support classes. We have had a small leap to that with the Ritualist who can support a monk pretty well. The Assassin is a very small leap towards support for a tank but it could use some more. The basic idea is for Guild Wars to get some more support classes.

Anyone else think that we could use some more support classes to help our existing ones?

Murder In China · Apr 06, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Then what the hell is a Necromancer, Mesmer, and a Ranger for?

Nevin · Apr 06, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Necromancer can Orders.
Rangers can do spirits.
Mesmers can shut down mobs that'd RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up tank or monk.

Winterclaw · Apr 07, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

How about a paladin class to help support all those overburdened W/Mo's? ¦Þ

(semi joking, semi serious here)

Omega X · Apr 07, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murder In China

Then what the hell is a Necromancer, Mesmer, and a Ranger for?

You forgot about Monks.

A good Prot monk will support the hell out of your group. Combined with a Mesmer for overzealous casters and a Heal monk for tight spots. ITs 100% support.

Adamant · Apr 07, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

The problem is, is that no one wants to play a support class, IE: lack of monks. Even if there were more support classes/skills, not many people would use them. Everyone wants to accomplish something in the group, everyone wants kills, support players get no kills. A support class defines a player as somewhat "worthless" in combat, yes they could help a lot, but just like the mesmer skills, you never really see them happening. It would be a forgotten player.

Not to rain on your parade, its just that I'm not sure if it would be appreciated.

NatalieD · Apr 07, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I love playing support characters.

But I've never had a problem making a useful support character with any primary other than warrior, so I'm not sure why the OP is complaining.

Mandy Memory · Apr 07, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Everything but warriors are support.

Monks heal the warriors (and other supporters)
Necros debuff the enemy and boost the warriors (and summon minions to help the warriors)
Mesmers shatter the enchants so the warriors can kill. They also degen hard targets to help the warriors.
Rangers give the warriors TF, they also lay traps and drop spirits to help the warriors.
Eles drop wards to protect the warriors and supporters. (they also spam heal party...besides that they are useless)

So there is already a lot of support. (What we really need are more good non-support classes. IE characters that can do the damage of a warrior with no energy req.)

LightningHell · Apr 07, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Eles drop wards to protect the warriors and supporters. (they also spam heal party...besides that they are useless)

Grrr...rawr. You forgot Blinding Flash. Flashbots ftw.

Mandy Memory · Apr 07, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Grrr...rawr. You forgot Blinding Flash. Flashbots ftw.

Yes I did! OMG how did I do that?

Ele uses BF to blind the enemy warriors to protect your warriors and supporters.

Minus Sign · Apr 07, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Shout skills from warriors can act as a group buff. (and there's a new Factions stance that was made exclusivly for support warriors.

Mesmers interupt and shutdown opposition very effectivly. Can you think of better damage reductiuon than killing the skill that was going to damage you?

Eles get wards that can protect groups that are fighting in a centralized area (ie, stay in the ward castors

)

Monks...nuff said.

Archers get spirits that boost damage, as well as trap skills that can heal or close exits and slow down multiple mob swarms. Smart castors can just stand in or kite to a dust trap for a breather

Necros get Blood skills, helping groups better manage mana and health in long fights. Add minions in the mix and they can be used as a semi-perminant meatshield to further slow agro and spread spikes.

Every Proffession is capable of acting in a support role. the problem is getting a group to actually accept you. Ok; thats really only half the problem. Big part of it is getting people to PLAY support skills.

Sadly, you're going to probably see Rits go spirit spammer and delayed nuker once factions hits the shelves. Most of their skills are aimed toward the doing of damage and the stripping of mob effects (like a Mo/Me with better smite potential), not the aid of the much beleagered heal/protters.

Change the title of this thread to what the real problem is in game: Support Players Needed...

EDIT: Doh! Beat me to it Mandy...

Squirrelly · Apr 07, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

I think rangers and mesmers are very under appreciated in PvE because you can't see them interrupt that migraine or drain that mark of protection. People just don't usually set up to do these things because like someone said they want part of the kill etc.

Naqser · Apr 07, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Everything but warriors are support.

Monks heal the warriors (and other supporters)
Necros debuff the enemy and boost the warriors (and summon minions to help the warriors)
Mesmers shatter the enchants so the warriors can kill. They also degen hard targets to help the warriors.
Rangers give the warriors TF, they also lay traps and drop spirits to help the warriors.
Eles drop wards to protect the warriors and supporters. (they also spam heal party...besides that they are useless)

So there is already a lot of support. (What we really need are more good non-support classes. IE characters that can do the damage of a warrior with no energy req.)

looks like you think warriors are the only class that can do any dmg, well Necros got good dmg spells. Rangers got barrage and all those bow skills, and the pet of course, Ele nukers do tremendous dmg with their spells, mesmers do deregen (which is a kind of dmg) but you allready said that. What do you think of that? No further Questions you honor

lyra_song · Apr 07, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Id just like to point out that a support warrior does exist. The Shout Warrior.

Rayea · Apr 07, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

well naqser, other than those that seem to visit forums, almost everyone in game seems to think that only warriors or wamos deal damage...

support isnt that hard to do, but to do it well and *have fun* while doing it takes a certain kind of person....
i have done support well in other games, but here in GW i dont do it very often, if at all...
one of the problems seems to be that most plyers just want to kick some ass literaly or figuratively here...standing back and using spells/skills dosent get you noticed, dosent let the meatshield at the front know you are pulling yer weight.....and you get forgoten in the end...a lot of people feel slighted when being the support chars, and we all remember how the poor Henchies felt (remember their posting in a henches suk thread hehe) since no one ever even thought to say thanks to them...

see for a lot of warriro players, unless your *Visibly* doing sometihng, and probably sometihng flashy, your thought of as just deadweight....not all warr are like that, but its mostly the non-forum wamo type that think a ranger/necro/mesmer are support that do naff all.....
monks are *Seen* healing, as are Ele seen *Nuking* and necro mm seen making minions outa the fallens corpses....

i guess we need to get some kind of way for a support class skill/spell to be more visual and visible....then we would get more support Players

Mandy Memory · Apr 07, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naqser

looks like you think warriors are the only class that can do any dmg, well Necros got good dmg spells. Rangers got barrage and all those bow skills, and the pet of course, Ele nukers do tremendous dmg with their spells, mesmers do deregen (which is a kind of dmg) but you allready said that. What do you think of that? No further Questions you honor

Warriors are the only class that can do damage.

Lets start with ele nukers and their "tremendous dmg".
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319
As you can see, a ele needs upwords of 8 energy regen and constantly spamming their best skills to do slightly less damage than a warrior using no skills.

Ele is useless for damage. (Exception being pre AoE nerf...in which they were okay for damage...I would still have brought a warrior in PVE and PVP.)

Necros do have good damage spells...but they are put to better use casting orders to increase the warriors damage by a lot more than they will ever do (Especially under the case of multiple warriors) They also have many other spells which help the warrior do their damage (Rigor Mortis)

Mesmers do degen, which is capped at 20 health per second...which is less than a warrior will do. (Unless the target is really...really hard. but warrior +dmgs ignore armor, so they would probably still do more damage)

Rangers are a tough one...because they are a weak wannabe warrior when they are attacking. Thus they are left to be interupters, like a mesmer (Actually atm they are better than mesmers, of course warriors can interupt too) Barrage is only good in extremely limited situations, ranger spike would be a better example of they they are good. Of course the main reason why rangerspike is good is because they do not have to run up to you...which is not a problem with you have 100 armor and/or really bad AI foes. (okay this is oversimplified, but you get the idea that Eviscerate/Ex is 300 damage in 2 seconds...hard to compete with)

Sadly you were right about the pet. They are rather strong. Too bad they have worse AI than the mushrooms from Super Mario Bros.

So yes...every other class is support. (and a shout warrior would be support...but since they would be supporting their fellow warriors I did not include it)

This stuff tends to break down in pve, because damage turns out to be worse than exploiting the AI. This is where the book trick + barrage + a MM becomes the best. There the MM just takes the place of warriors and the barrage just is the kickstart that the MM needs.

I am not saying that other classes cant be anything but support. I am just saying that they are best played as support since a warrior will outdamage them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayea

see for a lot of warriro players, unless your *Visibly* doing sometihng, and probably sometihng flashy, your thought of as just deadweight....not all warr are like that, but its mostly the non-forum wamo type that think a ranger/necro/mesmer are support that do naff all.....

I have been reading forums about the game for longer than I have been playing (Not sure what that has to do with anything) and I still think that the other classes are rather useless. (unless supporting the warrior, or doing some gimmick)

Warrior, Monk, and Necro are the only classes that should be used in pve. Any other class is just doing one of these classes's jobs worse. Ele's are bad. Rangers are bad warriors, and mesmers arent very useful in pve at all, they turn out to be bad necros. (Ri will be bad monk/necros. A wil be bad warriors)

In PVP Necro kinda loses his place because his primary att becomes bad. W and Mo are still there and joined by Me and R. E still has no place in PVP (Except as a support, usually just using his secondary and large energy pool)

Ishmaeel · Apr 07, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Everything but warriors are support.

I dived into this thread with the purpose of saying exactly this. Here's what I think:

<restrict context="PvE">
There is no place that can totally prevent a lone warrior from passing through. A solo W will be able to fight xes way through most of them and only will need to run through a few (compared to other classes). Other classes each have plenty of areas that they can never hope to run through (let alone fight through) and this alone tells me something about the classes.
</restrict>

If I had my way, Warriors would be a support class too, sometimes dependant on rangers sometimes mesmers. And all classes would be a bit more dependant too so the game would be much more leaned towards teamwork and cooperation. (But improve the monster AI before doing that, thx

)

Of course this would not work because I know everyone would want more "locomotive" classes which I hope also will not come true otherwise it would degenerate GW into a game whose name I cannot recall but is derived from some famous demon

.

@OP: More support classes is not what you want. Really, who wants to be the comic-relief sidekick that spams Orisons into mr. Schwarzenegger? What you want is every member of every class not thinking of themselves as "support" but "adventurers who complete other classes' shortcomings and are aware of their weaknesses can only be negated by the expertise of trusted allies."

Mandy Memory · Apr 07, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishmaeel

Of course this would not work because I know everyone would want more "locomotive" classes

I think there should be more locomotive classes. Ele is a good example of what should be able to compete with a warrior. The fire and air lines are completely useless because they are easily surpassed by a warrior. The earth and water lines just support the team. If fire and air could keep up with a warrior, I would bring an Ele in my team. Until then my ideal PVE team is:
5 warriors (multi-hit attacks are good...so are shouts)
1 orders necro (or MM...or both)
2 monks (Boon prot and healing normally)
in certain situations I will bring a barrage ranger (just as a note...I will be bringing at least 1 interupt ranger in every pve team in factions...They seem more needed there)

The main problem with the game is that the warriors turn to the rangers and tell them they are better because they do more damage. The rangers then turn to the mesmers and brag that they are better at interupting and spreading degen. The mesmers then turn to the ele and tell them they can use their own spells better because of fast casting. The necro then laughs, because he is badass in pve. The monk smiles, because he is unreplaceable. The ele cries...because he is better than no one.

The warrior is the top of the food chain in every style of play. The ele is the lowest. Every other class is higher because they grab onto the warrior and get dragged up. The ele cant support the warrior as well as the other classes. Therefore it should be changed up to compete with the warrior.

If there was an ele and a warrior as the good classes. The others would still be support (Except maybe a MM...they are quite good...) but they would have a choice on who to help. And every party could have warriors and/or ele, instead of avoiding ele alltogether.

DeadlyFred · Apr 07, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I think all the classes can be counted as support classes since each one of them serves best in certain capacities where others fall short. Being a "meat shield" certainly counts as support when it prevents enemies from breaking through to hack at the tender meat of your Casters... and in turn? The Casters help keep the Warrior alive either by healing him, hexing his opponents or just "nuking" them.

Given that every character has two seperate sets of skills to choose from, there's no reason at all that any given combination couldn't serve in a "support" role. Its all in how you play it, and how the rest of your party plays it.

Heck, did you know ol' Claude the Necromancer will regularly cast Blood Ritual on you or other members of your party if you're running low? That's what *I* call support. Even Warriors can help out the whole party with a skill like Watch Yourself.

Every class and combination thereof has a purpose and a place in making a party sucessful.. they ALL support one another, imho.

I definitely disagree with the sentiment that ANY class is above or below another on the proverbial food chain. If there is a weak link in a party's formation, its not due to the class selection, its due to the player.

Mandy Memory · Apr 07, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadlyFred

Given that every character has two seperate sets of skills to choose from, there's no reason at all that any given combination couldn't serve in a "support" role. Its all in how you play it, and how the rest of your party plays it.

The problem is, many of the classes are forced into a support role. Ever seen 8 mesmers beat a mission? I have seen 8 warriors beat a mission. I have seen 8 monks beat a mission. I have even seen 8 necros beat a mission (Only because of the 2 MM). I have never seen 8 rangers, mesmers, or eles beat a mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadlyFred

I definitely disagree with the sentiment that ANY class is above or below another on the proverbial food chain. If there is a weak link in a party's formation, its not due to the class selection, its due to the player.

I do not agree with you. If a warrior will always outdamage an ele, then why is it due to the player? If he cannot do as much damage no matter what skills he brings or how fast/well-timed he casts them, he is inferior.